Torture is for Sissies, Sissies don't Torture
General Curtis LeMay didn't want to kill civilians. So, he had notes dropped over Japanese cities warning that they would be bombed the next day. The Japanese Citizens would leave immediately creating a severe problem. The Japanese Government could not deal with all of the refugees. Not until some time after the War it was found that they were already discussing surrender before either atomic bomb was dropped. President Harry Truman, the WWI Veteran that's Battery fired their Guns up until the moment of the Armistice, made the decision to drop the atomic bombs in hopes of ending the War as quickly as he could. Historians will debate if the Nagasaki and Hiroshima were necessary for years to come. As will the bombing of Dresden, under FDR.
In light of what we see in the news now of the Bush Administration giving the green light to torture these two incidents stand out. I present to you two articles from Reason (a great Libertarian rag) Magazine. First, "Who Are You Calling a War Criminal? The dangers of making simplistic historical comparisons"
In my opinion, this is about politics more than it is about Tactics, Strategy or Morals. No one went to these lengths for the Branch Davidians, American Citizens burned alive. If torture worked or not is open to debate. Was it a bad decision? In a 4GW it can be used against you, a no brainier. But, we've managed not to have a repeat of September 11th, making it hard to argue with success. Success often has it's price, though. This is pointed out in "A Torturous Debate, Let's have some humility in the debate over interrogation methods." Will we continuously find a reason to justify it?
Anymore American Politics is just this statement: "Party membership and voting are frequently more about group identity than philosophical orientation about the proper role of government."(OK, three Reason articles, 4th paragraph BTW)If "War is an extension of politics", then what do we have? Is it open to debate or punditry? Is it about who's in charge? We better look deep inside for the answers.
Iggy Pop and The Stooge's "Search and Destroy"...Sin loi VC...
3.5mm Rockets are an extension of War. That was over Jane Fonda's head.
Love in the middle of a firefight...
The Appalachianist
In light of what we see in the news now of the Bush Administration giving the green light to torture these two incidents stand out. I present to you two articles from Reason (a great Libertarian rag) Magazine. First, "Who Are You Calling a War Criminal? The dangers of making simplistic historical comparisons"
In my opinion, this is about politics more than it is about Tactics, Strategy or Morals. No one went to these lengths for the Branch Davidians, American Citizens burned alive. If torture worked or not is open to debate. Was it a bad decision? In a 4GW it can be used against you, a no brainier. But, we've managed not to have a repeat of September 11th, making it hard to argue with success. Success often has it's price, though. This is pointed out in "A Torturous Debate, Let's have some humility in the debate over interrogation methods." Will we continuously find a reason to justify it?
Anymore American Politics is just this statement: "Party membership and voting are frequently more about group identity than philosophical orientation about the proper role of government."(OK, three Reason articles, 4th paragraph BTW)If "War is an extension of politics", then what do we have? Is it open to debate or punditry? Is it about who's in charge? We better look deep inside for the answers.
Iggy Pop and The Stooge's "Search and Destroy"...Sin loi VC...
3.5mm Rockets are an extension of War. That was over Jane Fonda's head.
Love in the middle of a firefight...
The Appalachianist
posted by Hill Billy Rave | Wednesday, May 13, 2009
12 Comments:
I wouldn't say that because we haven't had another 9/11 that the torture has been a success. It's just luck that there hasn't been another one.
I am sitting in the Richland County Public Library because my computer is dead. The time just came on. I have five minutes to say something. I do think much of the argumrnt is about politcs, but I used to point out to my classes that treating prisoners well was a force multiplyer. I liked it when I read of scores of Iraqi soldiers giving up to one American GI . . . no other army in the world . . . there must be a reason. Bill
Murf, that's the point. It's open to arguement. Can we say it was our luck, or they spilled the beans. Or did they say what you wanted to hear to stop it.
True, it is a force multiplyer, Bill. Like TE Lawrence sparing a Turkish Conscript thaat was found wondering around the desert.
I can't see true terrorists surcoming to torture. If they really believed what they were doing, they'd take whatever punishment anyone handed out. Torture only weeds out the weakest links.
Hmmm...I would think, myself. But then, I don't know if we have a grasp of their state of mind.
I can't justify it in those terms and I've always been taught that the better you treat prisoners the more they cooperate. But, these are not conscripts. Even so, they did hand some credidable information over. It's hard to make comparisons.
I ran across theis article on Gen. LeMay. ANd, as it was pointed out to me, we did kill an enormous amount of civillians in Japan. The basic history of the whole thing does not give the leaflets much credit.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124234559143121723.html
Isn't refreshing to have a conversation about terrorists rather than how hot you look in a uniform? ;-)
Gotta surprise both me and Murf and say I agree with her point. I don't think torture, for the most part, is effective. I think patient, phycological probing is more the ticket.
To make my point, think about this. The Vietnamese interrogators were unable to break John McCain. But look how quickly he fell apart and compromised his principles in a long, drawn out primary and presidential campaign.
You wrote:
"Party membership and voting are frequently more about group identity than philosophical orientation about the proper role of government."
That is so true. it's all about getting reelected and selling your soul to the highest bidder. Philosophy and higher purpose do not come into play.
Lastly, I put a review of POTATO HOLE in my latest post that you may find interesting. Unless you already knew about it
You are right, Muf. I am hot in that unirform. You absolutley burn up in the things! Could the Army ever come up with a hotter uniform than ACUs? The things just don't breath.
Ed, read it...I've heard about it, but, I've not rushed out to get it. But, once I come across it...It's Mine...
I think John McCain fell apart with his principles long before the campaign. He's one tough son of a bitch, though and I respect him for it. Torture did effect others though.
People from other cultures are different. Different things effect them in different ways. I don't think we can make a fair comparison on that. Not that I'm defending it. To tell the truth, if we are going to throw off on other countries for torture, then we should not do it ourselves. I don't think we should treat them with kit gloves either. I don't see a problem with depriving some sleep.
You've got to practice what you preach.
I read this Saturday night, but I had a very busy weekend.
Gotta practice what you preach. Amen, brother. That's the point.
This discussion comes coutesy of the United States Armed Forces. Without their sacrifices the discussion of how to treat others would be moot. I was fortunate in that I was never confronted by actual combat during my time in the Reserves, but I was very much the person who received the benefit of what others did, and I knew it, and I was humbled by it, and I tried not to judge much of the behavior of others. Does that mean I am in favor of torture? No! It does not, but war is a very harsh task master, and we discuss it in the quiet of our homes and perhaps the public libray as I am doing now, but I do not think all of what is going on in the media and Congress is straight forward or honest. Quite frankly, I don't think Pelosi is being honest in her comments as are many of us myself included. I do not know what I would do confronted wih torture. I would hope I would be honorable. John McCain seemed to have done the best that he could, and he has spoken publically against it. It is all we can ask of each other to do the best that we can. I hope these comments are not a cop-out or upset too many. I tend to agree more often than not with the Appalachianist, but then I share much of his culture, and I have worshipped with my grandson at the Cherokee Babtist Church in Cherokee, North Carolina. They open their Christian service with a hymn in Cherokee. A Christian service is, after all, a subliminal comment on torture. Bill
This may seem "off the hook" but I am convinced that Japan deserved those two captured nazi a-bombs.
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