"SHOT OUT"
This Post was spawned from a series of events and this Post on DNI (The comments meander nearly as much as they do here, Hmm).
I got this video e-mailed to me via Twistoli a week back. It’s originator made the claim that the explosion at the end was from U.S Counter Battery ( Indirect Fire).
This video (open the attachment) was made by the bad guys! The shooter's
> friends are praising Allah as he is launching mortar shots at American
> troops.
>
> What you will see is the effect of U.S. mortar locator technology that
> can track the trajectory of a hostile round and then fire a retaliatory
> shot to precisely the spot from where the hostile shell was fired. The
> effects are usually final. It is claimed that tracking of the hostile
> mortar fire normally can be completed within 3 rounds.
>
> Count the number of mortar rounds the masked insurgent fires in the
*> video. It demonstrates exactly how effective our US Army Mortar-Locator
> technology is. Wow!
It’s not Counter Battery. For a good Battery (Artillery) or Mortar Section (Infantry) it takes 120 seconds to send a shot out. Considering all that is involved, that is good. That is why mortars and rockets come in in groups. In my first months on Taji we would get 57mm Rockets in groups of three and four. In the early days of the 06' Ramadan we took a heavy hit with 120mm Mortars. It was a few rounds in less than a minute. But, the big news story of the time was the hitting of the Munitions Bunker at Camp Falcon. Then 4th Infantry Division depended on Apache Attack Helicopters to counter the mortars and rockets. After the 1/82 FA (1st Cav) began doing Counter Battery with the M109 Palladin's (155mm Self Propelled Howitzer's)the incoming began to come in in ones and two's. The main thing is, with several 155mm Improved Conventional Munitions (ICM) in Effect, it was placing the insurgents off balance. It didn't stop them, and as time went, they became more innovative.
Taji was taking a series of hits from a 120mm crew. They were hard for the Artillerymen to nail. Once on Counter Battery an Apache observed the impacts of the 155 rounds so he flew over to investigate. The pilot observed a sedan speeding away and began to follow it. A mortar tube was thrown from the car and he lit it up. Talk about a Combined arms Team. However, that was not the last of the 120's.
As well, the insurgents in the video are firing from a populated area. The US does not fire into heavily populated areas...And they know that. That is one reason the IZ has been getting hit so much lately from Sadr City.
What I believe happens in the video is the result of a poorly set fuze or, just plain old ammunition. Twister thought it was a British 2 Inch Mortar, I think its a 40mm. Either are old. The smallest mortar in US Inventory is a 60mm. The insurgent is doing the quick aim, holding the tube at an angle that is just a guess (he may not have the bi pod and sighting device). He knows he doesn't have much time either. He's just getting into the general area of a target. When it comes to indirect fire, one side setting the other off balance is an accomplishment. If you suppress their action, then you have achieved something as apposed to doing nothing. Yet, the fire has to be effective. I personally watched the impact of rounds with great concern, and felt relief at others.
Truth be known most Artillerymen in Iraq are doing things other than Artillery. I spoke with one Sgt than ran a convoy through the Depot that was on his third combat tour, one in Afghanistan and then twice in Iraq. He had always been doing something other than firing the big guns. The 1/82nd FA was tasked as the Base Defense Operations Center (BDOC), their responsibility was the gates, which covered a great deal with the searching and badging of Local Nationals (LN's)as well as "the wire" and some internal issues. I remember a PFC that worked Lobo Gate telling me he was excited that he was going to the "Hot Guns". He was going to fire rounds, not guard gates. As the surge came on other units were able to donate less essential personell to help fill the different rolls and more guns were manned.
Some Artillery units had Area's of Responsibility's outside the wire, for example a section of greater Baghdad. 13B's were knocking down doors, a roll more so for the Infantry. In reality, they operate as pseudo MP forces.
I did see the first Excalibur Round fired in Iraq. It hit it's target twice that day within inches. This device has great potential.
As a note there was some interservice rivalry involved. From my understanding, the Army wanted Excalibur, but the Marines did not. Hearing that made my Marine Lt. mad. Neither of us could imagine why not. The day it was fired the Air Force missed the same target twice, once with a dud and the next a miss altogether. The FA guys roared.
Making stuff up and glorifying technology won't do any good. It's war, where the Butterfly effect is always in effect, and one day your winning and the next your losing. Artillery is not the "King of Battle", Chaos is. When you know that, and you can adapt and adapt quicker...The better your chances of winning.
As a further note, I come from the Infantry, not the Artillery. I believe in effective fire.
The Appalachianist
I got this video e-mailed to me via Twistoli a week back. It’s originator made the claim that the explosion at the end was from U.S Counter Battery ( Indirect Fire).
This video (open the attachment) was made by the bad guys! The shooter's
> friends are praising Allah as he is launching mortar shots at American
> troops.
>
> What you will see is the effect of U.S. mortar locator technology that
> can track the trajectory of a hostile round and then fire a retaliatory
> shot to precisely the spot from where the hostile shell was fired. The
> effects are usually final. It is claimed that tracking of the hostile
> mortar fire normally can be completed within 3 rounds.
>
> Count the number of mortar rounds the masked insurgent fires in the
*> video. It demonstrates exactly how effective our US Army Mortar-Locator
> technology is. Wow!
It’s not Counter Battery. For a good Battery (Artillery) or Mortar Section (Infantry) it takes 120 seconds to send a shot out. Considering all that is involved, that is good. That is why mortars and rockets come in in groups. In my first months on Taji we would get 57mm Rockets in groups of three and four. In the early days of the 06' Ramadan we took a heavy hit with 120mm Mortars. It was a few rounds in less than a minute. But, the big news story of the time was the hitting of the Munitions Bunker at Camp Falcon. Then 4th Infantry Division depended on Apache Attack Helicopters to counter the mortars and rockets. After the 1/82 FA (1st Cav) began doing Counter Battery with the M109 Palladin's (155mm Self Propelled Howitzer's)the incoming began to come in in ones and two's. The main thing is, with several 155mm Improved Conventional Munitions (ICM) in Effect, it was placing the insurgents off balance. It didn't stop them, and as time went, they became more innovative.
Taji was taking a series of hits from a 120mm crew. They were hard for the Artillerymen to nail. Once on Counter Battery an Apache observed the impacts of the 155 rounds so he flew over to investigate. The pilot observed a sedan speeding away and began to follow it. A mortar tube was thrown from the car and he lit it up. Talk about a Combined arms Team. However, that was not the last of the 120's.
As well, the insurgents in the video are firing from a populated area. The US does not fire into heavily populated areas...And they know that. That is one reason the IZ has been getting hit so much lately from Sadr City.
What I believe happens in the video is the result of a poorly set fuze or, just plain old ammunition. Twister thought it was a British 2 Inch Mortar, I think its a 40mm. Either are old. The smallest mortar in US Inventory is a 60mm. The insurgent is doing the quick aim, holding the tube at an angle that is just a guess (he may not have the bi pod and sighting device). He knows he doesn't have much time either. He's just getting into the general area of a target. When it comes to indirect fire, one side setting the other off balance is an accomplishment. If you suppress their action, then you have achieved something as apposed to doing nothing. Yet, the fire has to be effective. I personally watched the impact of rounds with great concern, and felt relief at others.
Truth be known most Artillerymen in Iraq are doing things other than Artillery. I spoke with one Sgt than ran a convoy through the Depot that was on his third combat tour, one in Afghanistan and then twice in Iraq. He had always been doing something other than firing the big guns. The 1/82nd FA was tasked as the Base Defense Operations Center (BDOC), their responsibility was the gates, which covered a great deal with the searching and badging of Local Nationals (LN's)as well as "the wire" and some internal issues. I remember a PFC that worked Lobo Gate telling me he was excited that he was going to the "Hot Guns". He was going to fire rounds, not guard gates. As the surge came on other units were able to donate less essential personell to help fill the different rolls and more guns were manned.
Some Artillery units had Area's of Responsibility's outside the wire, for example a section of greater Baghdad. 13B's were knocking down doors, a roll more so for the Infantry. In reality, they operate as pseudo MP forces.
I did see the first Excalibur Round fired in Iraq. It hit it's target twice that day within inches. This device has great potential.
As a note there was some interservice rivalry involved. From my understanding, the Army wanted Excalibur, but the Marines did not. Hearing that made my Marine Lt. mad. Neither of us could imagine why not. The day it was fired the Air Force missed the same target twice, once with a dud and the next a miss altogether. The FA guys roared.
Making stuff up and glorifying technology won't do any good. It's war, where the Butterfly effect is always in effect, and one day your winning and the next your losing. Artillery is not the "King of Battle", Chaos is. When you know that, and you can adapt and adapt quicker...The better your chances of winning.
As a further note, I come from the Infantry, not the Artillery. I believe in effective fire.
The Appalachianist
posted by Hill Billy Rave | Thursday, May 01, 2008
9 Comments:
I agree. That was a defective round not counter battery fire.
In Afghanistan the insurgents used to prop rockets up on tree branches and sight off the fuses with burning cigarettes to give them time to get away before the counter battery fire or the helicopters showed up. We had some captured video showing them setting up for a launch. It was captured with a guy I interrogated. Unfortunately it wasn't provided to me till almost 6 months after he was captured.
"Air Force missed twice..."
The RAF?
ExMI. INTERESTING. They're smart.
In time they began to launch from multiple points. Memorial Day Weekend they were trying to really get us. We took rockets and mortars. They knew what holiday it was. And, they knew where they were aiming.
The 7mm were hit and miss. Once they barely missed the Iraq "day room/PX" on our facility. A little more tilt and to more hours and it would not have been pretty.
As you probably well know 120mm Mortars have the same blast radius of a 105mm Howitzer. They were deadly. They only shot t the coalition side with those.
Gunner. Sorry. It was USAF. That was a dud and a miss. I don't think it was guided though.
Your comment about chaos was the heart of the posting. I haven't been there, and I know little, but I think the comments posted are right on. I think I counted four rounds with the mortor and there may have been enough time to locate given your time line, so the thinking that it was possible US Counter Battery might work, but the argument for a bad round is cogent. Personally, I hope it was counter fire . . . each and every time except that it requires three rounds as I read it. Bill
Bill, Located. Yes. About a 60% chance. The thing is, there's not enough time to calculate, set charges, set fuzes and chamber/drop projectiles down a tube. Plus high angle travel time.
This guy used crap ammunition. It was said Saddam would have salt placed into bullets so that they would eat from te inside out, in case his troops tried to over throw him. My guess is the cannon fodder Divisions got the crap.
Often smaller rounds like that would not blow. The 57mm Rocket I spoke of hitting the Depot lodged into very hard compacted earth. Everything blew out the back end of the tube harmlessly blowing in one direction.
I found this post very interesting--thanks.
I'm glad you liked it, Sage.
I'd have another post, but Blogger was moving at the rate of pond water the other night.
note that he picks up the rounds from his left side (away from us) and the explosion comes from his right and slightly behind him . kinda throws out the theory of bad ammo
Annon, boy, you must have some good eyes. No disrespect, but, I don't see that. The explosion is at the base of the tube, the round exploding is in the tube. When mortar and arty rounds go off, they follow the path of least resistance, they don't throw shrapnel in a perfect circle, it often throws it more to one side or the other.
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